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It’s amazing how much it takes for some to reach the conclusion that systemic change is both necessary and requires… systemic change. As in systems changing. As in greater change than your individual decision to ride an EV or ICEV or public transit. Change that would make it exponentially more intuitive for you to choose the most sustainable one of those options.
Especially if mass transit is not feasible for you, this post is not to shame you or call on you to try and do it anyways. It’s a recognition that riding mass transit is not feasible or intuitive for most people, and a call to make mass transit available to more people rather than investing all that time and energy into the wild goose chase of EV adoption.
The crying indian really did a number on us.
Horses are even more sustainable and renewable. And tasty if done right.
It’s great to see that Skeletor and all his “likes” will be switching from gas cars to public transit.
It’s not even just about sustainability. It’s also largely about comfort (public transport is just 10x as comfortable as any car could be), price to the end consumer (public transport is typically much cheaper to the end consumer than cars, and that’s even by a lot), space management (compare how much space cars need vs. public transport) and all these things. it’s not just climate change.
… Have you ever used public transportation in any major city? It is about the only instance in modern age where you are in a vehicle that may be going 50 kph and you are standing. If you are going to be making claims, I would drop that “10x as comfortable” bit.
Comfortable is probably the biggest reason most people don’t use public transportation. With their own cars, they don’t need to wait, they don’t need to worry about whether they are going to be packed like sardines because of the work rush, or forced to even wait for another pass because it got full before they were able to get on, or have to worry about getting cramps from not being able to sit, or having the transit take significantly more because it’s not direct, or pickpockets…
About the only comfortable thing about public transport is if you can get on it during off-peak hours when seats are available, in a route that doesn’t require a lot transfers, that isn’t much longer due to the stops and side-routing, and that doesn’t have a high wait time. All the stars have to align.
In comparison, bikes are probably the better option overall, and it would be epic if public transport started incorporating e-bike/scooter transit along with it. Unfortunately it seems to be quite the opposite where I live due to concerns about Lithium battery fires, but hopefully someone somewhere realizes that that is just a standardization issue.
packed like sardines
Some users smell like them too.
Agree, it’s so much nicer.
No stress about searching parking spots, no cursing people driving too fast or slow… and reliable, fast, affordable and comfortable.
Political will is not even the problem; corruption, ie. corporatism and oligarchs are. They stand in the way of a truly public transit friendly society. None of the oligarchs are part of ‘us’.
And even if we consider cars,good driving experiences necessitate public transit, bicycle lanes, and walkability!
public transport is just 10x as comfortable as any car could be
Yes, nothing beats walking to a bus stop and waiting there in the cold, rain or burning sun, hoping the bus shows up in time or at all. Then stressing, because it being 15 minutes late probably means your connecting train will be gone. Oh yes, there it goes. Half an hour wait with no place to sit. And then repeat this two more times for more connecting trains and buses.
And I haven’t even talked about not being able to sit during train rides, or having to sit on back wrecking seats. Unfortunately I have back issues and after having enjoyed the ‘comfort’ of our public transport I often end up just not being able to stand or sit anymore at the end of the day because my back hurts so bad.
That is my average commute, and as a bonus there ultimately isn’t a difference in price here between taking the car or public transport. To top it off my average travel time is 60 minutes by car, 1.5 - 2 hours by public transport, often depending whether or not the first bus shows up in time.
It would be able to overlook a lot of this if it was feasible to do some work in the train, but with all the fragmentation on my route I never really get anything done.
I really would like to use public transport, as it is more sustainable than my gas guzzler, but each time I try it the experience just sucks so bad.
I’m with you entirely except for comfort. I think the only comfort advantage is that trains can have comparable leg room and you can standup.
I have never been on any type of mass transit where the seats were as comfortable as even a crappy car.
That’s ignoring system dependent stuff like cleanliness or the discomforts of being close to strangers.You can certainly clean more, put in better seats, and suck it up when it comes to strangers, but as it is right now, I struggle to see how you could say it’s more comfortable based purely on the amenities.
I struggle to see how you could say it’s more comfortable
easy, i don’t have to focus on the street for 50 minutes. that’s a big win for me.
Ah, I wouldn’t have called that comfort, more boredom. I still don’t agree on the comfort thing, but at least I can see where you’re coming from.
I’m tall and overweight. Even when I wasn’t overweight the seats have never been wide enough and I almost always have my knees pressed into the back of the seat in front of me. With the seat being too short as well, I usually end up with a fair bit of pain unless I can stand or get a seat without someone close in front of me.
It’s not really boredom, you have that time left to sleep, draw, read, or enjoy the scenery. All the more worth it for public transit.
It also takes cars off the road, meaning fewer and shorter traffic jams. Win in my book.
The seating is more of an issue with cars, I’ve felt. It’s always cramped and big cars are uncomfortable and unsafe. Hassle to park as well, and they end up costing you way more than it’s worth.
Yeah, for me the real status symbol is a bicycle and healthy legs. Or a good public transit card.
I mean, I used to be exclusively a bus rider or pedestrian, so I’m not unfamiliar with them. Sleeping is a bad choice because you can miss your stop, and at least in my experience the scenery is no different than you would get from the windshield.
Did like reading though, since that was relaxing. If I’m being fair though, taking a car for the trip I used to bus is fast enough that I wouldn’t find a book worth it.Does the seat softness not bother you? For me, seat softness and leg room are the two biggest drives for feeling uncomfortable and even the smallest car has more.
To be clear, I’m not saying public transit is bad. Far from it. If it were remotely viable for any of the trips I need to take it would be my go to. I just think that they could put more padding on the seats, make them a little larger, and give a touch more leg room.
You don’t miss your stop with an alarm.
The scenery is certainly different. You don’t always see roads, you look at the side.
The seats are pretty comfy in train and bus, enough leg space too. I do agree with you that more padding and extra leg space would be always welcome, though.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the seats. It’s just not comfortable from my view. A cheap office chair would be an upgrade. We almost certainly live in different areas with different buses, so it’s not really something we can compare specifically.
Completely different scenery is pushing it a bit. I can pretty much see whatever I could see out of the bus window through the windshield, and for the most part it’s not what you would call “scenic”. I don’t live in the country nor do I live in a big enough city for interesting architecture, so it’s just a long suburban and urban sprawl of slightly run down houses and low grade commercial along the bus routes. We’re not talking some run down dystopia, but there just isn’t much interesting to see, at least more than once.
I don’t think an alarm would help me not miss my stop. The buses here are reliable, but not regular enough to set an alarm for arrival times. I was always worried they’d show up early and I’d miss it, and that sucked when the weather was bad.
Electric cars are a type of vehicle. Public transit is a type of transportation system that include many different types of vehicles and can include electric cars.
You’re comparing apples to orchards.
They aren’t doing that, you are. The apples to apples comparison that they are making is our current transit system; with the cars being fully electrified but otherwise as it exists today; versus a transit system that prioritizes mass transit (and walking and biking) over personal vehicles.
Electric cars are a solution to save the auto industry, not the climate.
Maybe in your bubble it’s common parlance that “electric cars” = “electrifying mass private vehicle infrastructure”, but from the outside, that’s not a straightforward interpretation.
I’m just letting you know the most good faith interpretation of this post, in case you missed it. I’m not interested in arguing about “common parlance”
I have Reduced my car/bike usage. I’m still a hobby driver/motorcyclist but I do it less nowadays.
All my vehicles are bought second hand and will be Reused until I can’t fix them anymore. They’re both mid 00’s Hondas (car and bike) so that’s likely going to be until I run out of parts on the market.
Then they will be Recycled for scrap metal. At that point I’ll think about Reusing some other second hand car. If electric makes sense it’ll be that.
What public transport?
That’s the problem they’re pointing out.
Oh boy more of the same. Can I still have a side of billion dollar rail lines desired by those who don’t own property and a complaint about houses being to expenaive and wages too small?
Come up with some new shit. Like how many Republicans and democrats you got to have sex. And why doesnt language translate for man’s oldest friend…a dog.
also a 2nd hand ICE car is more sustainable than a new EV
You are technically correct, but I think this fact is often used by new car purchasers to soften the blow: “Someone will buy my old car / this one when I’m done.” Actually committing to the implications of this fact is difficult.
It actually depends on how many km each car will be doing in the future, and what power source will charge the EV.
Where I live there is 0 public transport. I charge my EV with my own solar panels. So I think I am okay.
You are way better than the average car owner but it still takes a lot of energy to build an electric car. For the environment it would be even better if the batteries are used in buses and electric bikes, then more people can transport themselves with less pollution.
Of course, but they’re doing the best they can.
Next step would be attending city/town hall meetings, and slowly advocating for more and more public transit over time.
The dream of coast-to-coast public transit, the likes of which we saw before WWII, is still possible
You’re assuming a city / town.
In the US and for those that live outside of municipal boundaries and that live in unincorporated regions, lots of states have “townships” that are the default local government below county-level. Municipal corporations like towns and cities replace townships.
Still, those townships have local governments that can be engaged with politically.
And then there’s counties in the US which act as the local government overseeing townships, etc.
People’s political activism doesn’t have to start and end in towns/cities.
Do the have a local government capable of building effective municipal transport?
They might be able to put a bus on that takes half a day to cover all the scatted houses, but nobody is going to use it.
A bus network is a good first step, yes.
And why all the pushback against political action? You’re giving off doomer vibes.
Depends if they need a car. My bro is in a city with about 7 public transport options within 200 metres walk and has 2-3 EVs
Lots of money, not a lot of sense.
You shouldn’t live there.
So I take it you are personally funding his new home? How generous of you.
If I had control over the government, sure. I would get him a nice little apartment in a location where he doesn’t have to burden the rest of society with his libertarian fantasies.
Fortunately nothing you say is relevant or should be taken seriously because there’s a .ml after your name. It’s not possible for you to have a meaningful opinion.
Lol different post same thought-terminating bullshit
Lol! You’re so mad that you’re bringing old comments. This is hilarious. You .ml users really are all brain dead. You’re blocked now but please stop helping fascists get into power just because the Russian propaganda machine is telling you to. So fuckin sad honestly
Lol the best defense you’ve got for being caught repeating the same moronic bullshit post after post is “ur mad”
Sure, if ignorance is your preferred tool, I wouldn’t dream of suggesting otherwise.
Working from home is the best. Not everyone can do it, but those who can, should be allowed to. Return to office isn’t for us, it’s for them.
Working from home is the best.
Very difficult to build class solidarity when you’re atomized to the point of not even seeing one another’s real faces.
You don’t have to do that at work. You can do that at the library, bar, farmer’s market, etc. In fact, I’d rather do it with people near where I live, instead of people that share the other end of my commute.
You don’t have to do that at work.
:-/
The place you spend half your waking hours?
You can do that at the library, bar, farmer’s market, etc.
Do you have a job?
Do you have a job?
I don’t currently. Are you hiring computer programmers? I’ve got 20+ applications sent out via Indeed, but I haven’t found one yet.
Even when I was employed, I still visited the library, a few bars, and the saturday farmer’s market. While I don’t think visiting the bar is necessarily a must, you really should participate in your local library and farmer’s market. Connecting to your community is important.
Are you hiring computer programmers?
We are, in fact.
I’ll shoot you a DM.
Holy shit, if my comment turns into this dude scoring a position at your company, I’m sending you a Christmas card.
I get why you’re digging at them, but there was a period in my life I went to the bar after every workday. Now I have a child. But back then, that’s just how I met new people and socialized. Now I… just don’t really meet new people. Maybe I’ll start meeting other parents soon when it’s kindergarten time, but that’s about it.
I think this depends most on what kind of city you live in. I had an 8 minute walk from office to bar, and a 4 minute walk from bar to home. And the bar was on the way anyway.
Bike/Electric scooter + public transport is a peak mobility, but public transport isn’t even built for that :(
Not in South FL. Our trains have designated bike racks on the interior and our busses have bike racks on the front. I take a train to work every day, it’s really nice.
Fr, if the British gov stopped arresting every one who rides an electric scooter then the bus might actually be an attractive option
Well I mean Ireland doesn’t arrest electric scooters but you can’t bring them into transport because, ahem, batteries can explode.
so can a lot of things
I mean from engineering perspective batteries in the board part do get damaged when you damage the board by hitting the floor, and they have increased chances to catch fire when your charge them. And when they do, they fucking destroy everything around. You can’t really stop it either.
Key point: when you charge them. There is no reason to assume that would happen in tram or something.
Trains and buses have banned them anyway so it limits their use as a last mile solution as you typical need them both ends of the public transport
Yes, though not always as accessible.
The problem with electric cars is two fold as far as I understand it:
- The electricity it uses is not sustainable.
- It has lots of tracking etc and in some cases remote control.
While the power source that generated the electricity is not necessarily sustainable, power plants should have more at scale Features to limit the pollutants than a traditional petrol engine.
Or at least the power plants should if one lives in a civilized society…
civilized society
I’m sorry sir but such a thing does not exist, I fear you must have dreamed it.
The problem with EVs is that in almost all ways other than local pollution they are just as bad as ICE vehicles. They
- need massive amounts of asphalted space for roadways and parking
- use this space very inefficiently and cause traffic congestion at any given spike in traffic
- drive urban sprawl and thus make housing less sustainable (more sewage,water supply, electric supply, heating, roads/person required)
- urban sprawl stretches everything far apart and makes public transit much less feasible so people who can’t drive cars struggle to get places, for example kids can’t walk to school or take public transit, instead must be driven
- are loud (because tyres rolling is the driving source of noise)
- are dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists
- their dangers and tendency to cause traffic congestion inhibit other, more efficient and sustainable modes of transport so that when not regulated properly, they take over all of the streetscape as is evident in most western places
This is a general complaint about vehicles, not necessarily EVs, and extends to trucks, motorcycles, and basically anything that gives humans more range than their feet.
This position would probably be best directed at the city planning office.
This is a general complaint about vehicles, not necessarily EVs
Yes, that’s like the whole point of my post, being E doesn’t fix 90% of the issues caused by individual motorised transport vehicles. And city planning can’t do anything about these inherent issues either, they can merely decide to make good, sustainable cities or car friendly cities. Good city planning policies stand in direct contrast to the amount of cars expected to be driven.
And I’m saying this not to shit on EVs, they must clearly replace ICE vehicles as soon as possible, but to warn that they will not fix the unsustainable state of affairs in transportation. Loads of people appear to actually believe they do and that’s sort of dangerous. We’re not gonna fix jack shit if we just transition these vehicles to being electric while further increasing car dependency and sprawl. We’re gonna make it even worse.
Bus lanes and light rail!
Also, those tires on asphalt are one of the leading contributors to environmental pollution from all the shedded microplastics.
YES, can’t believe I forgot that point.
I have never heard anyone claim EVs are loud before.
They are loud. Not when they drive slowly, but when they pick up speed. The wheels make just as much noise as an ICE.
I’m not going to claim that EVs are loud.
I’m going to state it as a fact: EVs are loud. About as loud as ICE cars. I live on a busy street, so I know that this is beyond dispute. The tire noise and wind resistance dominate the noise produced above about 30 kph. ICE vehicles these days have efficient engines and good soundproofing. Many are virtually silent if they go past my house slowly.
Unexpectedly, the hybrid-electric city buses that go past are among the quietest vehicles. They must use tires designed for a quiet, comfortable ride, because all I hear is a slight whoosh, even when they pass by in the quiet, wee hours of the morning.
(To be fair, EVs with quiet tires and moving <30kph are virtually silent, too.)
it seems what y’all are complaining about are the tires, which are going to be that loud regardless of what engine propels them.
Yes, and? EVs are quiet, if we ignore the noise they make?
“EVs make too much tire noise” does not mean “cars make too much tire noise” which is your actual complaint.
My comment is not about what people claim about EVs but how they actually are.
so that sentence you wrote is not a claim?
Correct, it’s a fact
deer god give me the confidence of an idiot on the internet.
Tracking is not unique to electric cars, just new cars.
Large power stations are more efficient than small engines.
Many electric car owners also have solar panels.Refining enough fuel to transport an average car 100km uses enough energy to transport an average electric car 50km. That’s just refining, not including searching for or collecting the oil, or transporting the fuel to fuel stations.
It’s so much electricity that most oil refineries have dedicated coal or gas power stations.As long as you are only considering cars, electric cars are superior in almost every way, and are constantly getting better.
A diesel bus is still better than an electric car (although an electric bus would be better still). Trains and trams would be ideal, but require more upfront cost, so are easier for lazy or corrupt politicians to oppose.
Good point about tracking being a newer car problem.
Sadly where I live busses are not accessible to me since:
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They are infrequent.
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They do not have a ‘live map’ so make me extremely anxious since I don’t know where I am nor where to stop the bus.
Where I’m from, in the UK, there’s a lot of wind power because it’s cheaper and the labour government of 97-2010 invested in it.
So electricity is greenest and cheapest overnight, so my car knows to charge itself starting when the cheap overnight electricity tariff kicks in. I save about 80% over what I used to party for petrol.
I do not miss going to the petrol station one bit.
Yes Nissan have my car’s location all the while but otherwise they wouldn’t be able to report it to me via the app. And I trust them much more than I trust Google and Google not only knows where I and my phone are all the time, they also know what apps I use for how long and if I accidentally press the button their assistant gets to see a screenshot. Worrying that Nissan know where I parked the car doesn’t compare.
Anyway, it’s just the most fun to drive car I’ve ever driven. So much acceleration! So smooth!
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I’d say long term, neither of those should be problems
The electricity it uses is not sustainable.
Many EV users also go for solar panels to alleviate energy costs. Also as a country’s electrical grid modernises, it should make use of a greater share of renewables given they’re cheaper than the alternatives now.
It has lots of tracking etc and in some cases remote control.
Slightly less certain, but I’d hope this kind of thing is legislated away at some point. There’s also always customer choice, there will be manufacturers that compete on the privacy angle if enough of us care
The main problem with EVs is it doesn’t solve any of the problems inherent to cars being treated as the main mode of transportation in a given area. Places like that will see EVs as the solution compared to an alternative of investing into better public transit infrastructure.
Infrastructure that is basically inevitable, since we know now that any town/city that eschews anything but car transit will ultimately bankrupt themselves on road maintenance alone.
the wear of the tires constantly pollutes the environment with synthetic material dust (rubber, plastic, etc). much more so, than from buses, because every car has to move more of its weight around per passenger.
I would suggest different downsizes:
- EVs are much heavies, and they wear down the road, and everything else
- tire particles are going to be the next problem after fossil fuels
Solution: trains, more trains, even more trains.
What about electric public transit? EV buses are becoming quite popular in Korea.
The nearest major city to me has had electric buses since 1940. There are power cables overhead and poles that link the bus to the grid. No need for expensive flammable batteries that need extensive charging.
Trolley busses still have batteries, they just get charged by the overhead wires while the bus is driving.
Historically they didn’t. But many (certainly not all) modern trolley busses have batteries (or more common, super capacitors) that allow for short distances to be travelled without contact with the lines. It’s certainly not an ‘all’ thing though.
They’re more of a backup option. The point being that it’s safer and cheaper than modern high-capacity batteries.
OK, well, that’s nice in a city. I’d love to see them try and get a tram up the mountain here, though.
Also Germany
As long as they’re being purchased as a replacement for buses that are either at the end of their life or being donated to smaller communities, then sure. This said from the perspective of an American whose city, state and federal governments refuse to fund the public transit that we already have. (╥_╥)
It’s also collectivizing the solution rather than expecting us each to address the problem on an individual level that doesn’t change the status quo one iota.
