Ie not [email protected].
Edit: I am going to try to start my own for now here https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/plantbased
I’d be interested in seeing an example or two if you have the time
What do you mean by “militant and rude?”
I always wonder where people are going that this seems so common. I’ve been relatively low meat for a while, what’s called half-vegetarian/flexatarian. My experience is that most vegans/vegetarians just want to share their favorite recipe.
In my experience, this usually comes from people defending half-measures, which is fundamentally wrong from the vegan point of view, and thus the claws come out. If you aren’t going against the “correct” stance, vegans are very chill, as someone who is low meat as well I am working on eradicating that (which at this point is more of a social problem than individual).
Not accepting that people need time to adjust and maybe go vegan in smaller steps. There is even hostility towards people who look for fake meat or dare to say they like the taste of meat even though they still want to avoid eating it. Just generally being assholes and gatekeepers.
This is a natural consequence of always being attacked by non-vegans, patience is thin and communities are maintained by the ones who remain. Unlike, say, gaming, veganism is constantly attacked, so it’s harder for them to be more inclusive than a gaming community would be.
Seems a bit like a vicious circle to me. Hate against vegans leading to a hateful reaction, leading to vegans being perceived as assholes, leading to more hate against vegans etc. I guess it’s understandable, but it also seems counterproductive for spreading veganism.
Anecdotally, as a vegetarian I can say that the most vicious attacks against my lifestyle were not by meat eaters but some vegans (online-vegans to be precise, all I’ve met IRL were nice people). That’s despite me certainly never attacking veganism, I even think it’s morally superior to vegetarianism.
I really think this is an incredibly insightful take. I can’t say I hang out in many vegan specific corners of the Internet, but I know there is a very active and vocal segment of the Internet community that’s anti-vegan, I’ve heard stories of coordinated brigading attempts against vegan communities on the Internet.
I’d imagine it would be almost impossible to run an open and welcoming community when you are getting constantly inundated with hate messages, eventually it would become incredibly difficult to discern between a user who has genuine curiosity and one who is asking bad faith questions in order to trigger some kind of debate.
At this point in time you couldn’t pay me to become a mod in one of those communities, it really seems like a no win scenario.
Also, a lot of people that join fringe movements have a personality that craves conflict, and it becomes an outlet for it.
Non-carnism isn’t really so fringe anymore, but that’s pretty new, and may not have reached veganism specifically.
That’s been my experience too. I’m trying to eat less meat and find alternatives that work for me, but it apparently has to be all or fuck you for some. I know it’s not everyone, but somehow they seem the loudest and it’s not very helpful.
Previously I found that they were staunchly anti-anything but vegan and carried over said rudeness from the reddit communities. As a vegan myself it was a big turn off. I asked about this and they banned me. Reminiscent of lemmygrad on anything but their specific MLM ideology.
Lemmygrad aren’t MLM, they are ML with Dengist sympathies and are anti-Gonzaloist, but regardless most Vegans on the fediverse are Vegan because of strict ethical and moral reasons and believe in full animal liberation. It’s hard to take a half-way stance on that matter with that frame of mind, which can manifest itself in “rudeness.” Additionally, most Vegans experience tons of hostility, making them more defensive by default.
That makes sense about lemmygrad’s odd takes.
As a vegan I fully get that, but most vegan communities are hostile at best.
I wouldn’t say Lemmygrad has odd takes for being MLs, they are extremely consistent with most organized ML parties worldwide. I’d need to know what you mean by “odd,” the fact that they have an ML line or their interpretation of ML, the latter of which is very standard from what I have seen.
Back to Veganism, I haven’t experienced hostility, and I think it’s generally going to be that way unless you bash veganism or defend antiveganism or non-veganism, hence the point of a vegan community. Just my 2 cents.
This attitude is the entire problem. You know exactly what OP means, but you pretend like the reputation the vegan community has nothing to do with the community itself.
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Oh yeah good point! I’ve run into them too but can’t remember their names.
Vegantheoryclub.org is one, and while technically not Vegan focused, Hexbear.net is explicitly pro-Veganism.
Not certain on VTC, but Hexbear’s vegan community definitely took a hardline stance against the things OP’s asking for, with zero tolerance for things like vegetarianism or making changes to reduce your meat intake - it’s all or nothing.
Fair, doubt OP will find exactly what they want anywhere though. Most vegans are ethical vegans, so it’s hard to find some in favor of any meat eating.
vegan theory club is probably not what the OP wants. We are friendly and relaxed but we maintain this by a zero tolerance stance against anything except veganism.
So vegans can freely chat and talk in good faith and safe in the knowledge they won’t have to defend themselves or stumble on something miserable, but if you want a space shared with carnists then uh. Yeah maybe hexbear is better?
Right now, nowhere on lemmy that I’ve found.
Mind you, it isn’t every person, but all the vegan communities and instances are currently run by militants of some degree. The .world one is the least militant that I’ve run across.
They aren’t all rude, but definitely have the kind of thinking that leads to rudeness eventually.
Which really sucks because there’s plenty of really chill vegans on lemmy. But you can’t talk to them in vegan spaces without it being a problem unless you’re parroting the scripture of vegan to their satisfaction.
Being real, I kinda wish someone would start a decent relaxed community.
I will try now at https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/plantbased
Is vegan cat food allowed?
I wrote a reply then saw your other comment and realized you’re just arguing
Pretty sure my other comment was a well thought out discussion of moral absolutism versus harm reduction. My ethics are relativist, even leaning towards moral skepticism. If you are not acquainted with these concepts then that’s fine but it’s a real position that many hold which creates a valid lens for why veganism (or really, all universalist ethics) tends to attract militants. Not “just arguing” which is you being dismissive. And kind of rude.
I don’t mean to be rude but you come to a post asking about good vegan subs saying why it’s wrong. Read the room
Like I said, I am just sharing a lens which attempts to analyze why these communities are like this. I am personally about 2/3 vegan, but find most vegan communities insufferable and felt like I had relevant perspective to share.
The idea of not eating meat isn’t “wrong,” and i never said sny such thing. Again, as a moral skeptic, that’s like saying “not eating meat is blue.” It’s a meaninglass statement.
Then I’m sorry, your first two comments made me think otherwise. I’ve been seeing a lot of toxicity and bad actors recently.
I agree with you from a personal diet perspective and as a Buddhist, I don’t think it’s wrong. I do think there are ethical virtues and it benefits many beings from not eating animal products though :)
Wasn’t .world the only one where an admin decided to go on a rampage?
Nah, just the most egregious incident. And even that only got attention because it’s such a big instance.
Thanks for taking the rudeness claim seriously! :) I fully agree with you.
Previously I started a plant based community on Lemmy.world maybe I will try to actually be active. You’ve inspired me
I just want to say I love militant vegans, so long as militant means they are organized and actively creating the world they want to live in. if they are just preaching, I would not say they are militant, just evangelical.
and, to be clear, I’m neither. I just find militancy admirable.
How do you see vegans organizing and creating this world without preaching? How do you spread an ethical diet? Like that one dude saying struggle sessions and party line… for a diet, what
You can spread an ethical diet by making the ethical choices more affordable, and more available, today, in capitalism.
Just like anarchists who build things like: community gardens/farms, neighborhood affinity groups, etc etc.
Great point.
That reminds me Foguangshan nuns near Nanhua University in Taiwan. They sell vegetarian meals for 1 dollar so that the ethical choice is the affordable choice.
they can organize among themselves. affinity groups that practice direct action are like my favorite political orgs.
Direct action? You’re implying something beyond ethics and diet. But what? Honestly don’t know! ;)
animal liberation front did some good work. earth liberation front, just stop oil… you get the idea I hope
The entire “problem” with veganism is that almost anything which starts with such an inflexible moral imperative ends up becoming militant, specifically because that rigidity quickly becomes at odds with more practical and functional versions of the idea.
Like so many similar ethics, veganism doesn’t really concern itself with creating a practical or actionable roadmap for how food supply chains can be iteratively modified towards the goal of reducing animal suffering. Militant moralists, in fact, tend to avoid such things specifically because they demand a framework of accountable progress. Demanding radical and unrealistic measures be taken, and then condemning those who express skepticism or hostility of this idea is much easier. Like a religion.
the entire problem with your comment is that you are using vague language and not defining your terms. as a result, you have presented unfalsifiable theory.
no one should believe anything you’ve written here.
Poor people are adversely affected by green washing because the prices of meat and dairy free alternatives force their families out of the price range. The of introducing plant based alternatives to grocery stores with gentrification in poor areas has been a significant issue that is downplayed because tech-WASPs want to buy out the neighborhoods anyway.
Silicon valley is radiating out of the city and families that have been living in Oakland and Richmond have been getting priced out of the area. It’s not that veganism is the problem, it’s that veganism is expensive and isn’t subsidized while also making traditional food harder to acquire. Since the price has risen for luxury products and the stores are higher scale, prices for basic products also rise. It’s happening in Portland and Eugene too, and I’m sure wherever tech is booming.
Again, it’s not specifically veganism. It’s a bit of a byproduct of the type of people. The traditional families that are being priced out are also vegans and non-dietary restricted families. It’s the green washing to force poor families out of areas rich people choose to live, literally weaponizing veganism. Also yt veganism, as if minority families haven’t been living vegan for decades already.
Finally, I also don’t entirely agree with the other user but a point I think they may have been trying to make is the difference between factory farmed and locally sourced. For some it is about harm to the animals full stop, to which point not all local farms that sell dairy harm their livestock. The goal should be harm reduction so anyone moving away from factory farms to local farms should be encouraged, but it’s common to get responses that reject even that, which in turn only bolsters factory farmings position as local farms get further eroded from lack of local support.
All in all, don’t let yt veganism replace actual vegan philosophy and please respect indigenous traditional practices. We should be aiming to move back to these practices in the industry to scale it down, not replacing them with soy/almond/oat milk that’s 4x more expensive and pricing families out of neighborhoods
more non falsifiable vaguery
Eh, veganism is quite clear in that it doesn’t support the use of any animal products. If one doesn’t live by that fully everyday there is still benefit to doing it in part.
You’re also wrong about vegans not being concerned about supply chain ie how people get there food and how it affects people and animals.
There’s no problems with morals lol. Are you going to argue that not killing is like a religion?
There’s a lot of ideas that I agree with, but that are made into a religion. I think it’s because abstract ideals aren’t very motivating on their own.
True!
You can’t think of any valid reason to kill?
