The United States invaded Panama in mid-December 1989 during the presidency of George H. W. Bush. The purpose of the invasion was to depose the de facto ruler of Panama, General Manuel Noriega, who was wanted by U.S. authorities for racketeering and drug trafficking. The operation, codenamed Operation Just Cause, concluded in late January 1990 with the surrender of Noriega.[9] The Panama Defense Forces (PDF) were dissolved, and President-elect Guillermo Endara was sworn into office
i get this kind of thing might ruffle some true patriots, and yeh no shit Noam would lie about this shit, but I will struggle to feel bad about veterans
I struggle with this. I hesitate on both sides. “Just following orders” isn’t enough of a defense to justify some seriously bad shit that any reasonable person would stop and go “are we the bad guys?” over. For big picture stuff, the individuals in the military wouldn’t have the entire context of what’s happening, they would just be given orders and expected to go and do.
So on one hand, I understand the “just following orders” defence, on the other, I don’t think that’s an excuse for doing shitty things to people, especially non-combatants/civilians/whatever.
Operational ignorance only accounts for so much.
I don’t want to blame veterans for what happened, but I also don’t think they’re innocent in all of it because they were “just following orders”…
It’s definitely something that I’m split on. Either way, veterans, at the very least, deserve to be taken care of and given a certain amount of respect for their work and, in many cases, sacrifices, so that we can enjoy a relatively peaceful and free existence.
And my feelings on this don’t change based on what military someone served in. This applies to all veterans. Thank you for your service, I sure hope you’re not guilty of war crimes regardless of if you were “just following orders” or not.
They absolutely don’t deserve respect for going overseas and murdering people in service of the US empire. But they do still deserve basic human rights and a minimum standard of living that should be afforded to everyone.
I afford them a modicum of respect not because they were part of the war machine, but because they faced that danger, in the spirit of defending their country (whether it actually achieved this goal or not, is up for debate), and encountered who knows what kind of horrific scenes and circumstances along the way, then survived to tell the tale.
I give them respect for personal bravery more than anything. I certainly don’t want to poke my head out from behind cover while being shot at, to try to defend myself against an attacker that doesn’t even speak the same language as I do, regardless of why the fighting is happening.
Their sacrifice, of being there, and participating in the war machine, means that the government doesn’t need to conscript people, or force them into mandatory military service. Therefore, I don’t have to go there and experience what they did.
Idk, that seems like something worthy of at least a little respect.
But I’m not here to tell you what to think or do people braver than me died in world wars gone by for us to have differing opinions, so hold whatever opinion you want.
I get where you’re coming from, I get admiring bravery, but I don’t really believe it’s *that" brave, compared to many other things which require great bravery in civilian life.
The US didn’t abandon conscription because they had enough willing people to sign up, they just changed strategy. Conscription failed in Vietnam, and the US turned to CIA and special ops death squads to persecute its illegal wars. The job of the ordinary military member is just to support those, which is gross and frankly cowardly as well.
If they didn’t do it, you wouldn’t have to, nobody has to do that. IMO it’s far braver to reject the so called “necessity” of participating. The threat of being ostracised by your society can be just as scary as being shot at with your buddies at your side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Panama
i get this kind of thing might ruffle some true patriots, and yeh no shit Noam would lie about this shit, but I will struggle to feel bad about veterans
I struggle with this. I hesitate on both sides. “Just following orders” isn’t enough of a defense to justify some seriously bad shit that any reasonable person would stop and go “are we the bad guys?” over. For big picture stuff, the individuals in the military wouldn’t have the entire context of what’s happening, they would just be given orders and expected to go and do.
So on one hand, I understand the “just following orders” defence, on the other, I don’t think that’s an excuse for doing shitty things to people, especially non-combatants/civilians/whatever.
Operational ignorance only accounts for so much.
I don’t want to blame veterans for what happened, but I also don’t think they’re innocent in all of it because they were “just following orders”…
It’s definitely something that I’m split on. Either way, veterans, at the very least, deserve to be taken care of and given a certain amount of respect for their work and, in many cases, sacrifices, so that we can enjoy a relatively peaceful and free existence.
And my feelings on this don’t change based on what military someone served in. This applies to all veterans. Thank you for your service, I sure hope you’re not guilty of war crimes regardless of if you were “just following orders” or not.
They absolutely don’t deserve respect for going overseas and murdering people in service of the US empire. But they do still deserve basic human rights and a minimum standard of living that should be afforded to everyone.
I get what you’re saying.
I afford them a modicum of respect not because they were part of the war machine, but because they faced that danger, in the spirit of defending their country (whether it actually achieved this goal or not, is up for debate), and encountered who knows what kind of horrific scenes and circumstances along the way, then survived to tell the tale.
I give them respect for personal bravery more than anything. I certainly don’t want to poke my head out from behind cover while being shot at, to try to defend myself against an attacker that doesn’t even speak the same language as I do, regardless of why the fighting is happening.
Their sacrifice, of being there, and participating in the war machine, means that the government doesn’t need to conscript people, or force them into mandatory military service. Therefore, I don’t have to go there and experience what they did.
Idk, that seems like something worthy of at least a little respect.
But I’m not here to tell you what to think or do people braver than me died in world wars gone by for us to have differing opinions, so hold whatever opinion you want.
I get where you’re coming from, I get admiring bravery, but I don’t really believe it’s *that" brave, compared to many other things which require great bravery in civilian life.
The US didn’t abandon conscription because they had enough willing people to sign up, they just changed strategy. Conscription failed in Vietnam, and the US turned to CIA and special ops death squads to persecute its illegal wars. The job of the ordinary military member is just to support those, which is gross and frankly cowardly as well.
If they didn’t do it, you wouldn’t have to, nobody has to do that. IMO it’s far braver to reject the so called “necessity” of participating. The threat of being ostracised by your society can be just as scary as being shot at with your buddies at your side.
Noriega was also a School of America’s, aka School for Dictators, graduate.