• jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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    18 days ago

    I got some people really angry at me when I suggested writing some math expression with parenthesis so it would be clearer. I think someone told me that order of operations is like a natural law and not a convention, and thus everyone should know it or be able to figure it out.

    • so it would be clearer

      That’s because it’s already clear as is, as per the rules of Maths.

      I think someone told me that order of operations is like a natural law

      It’s a natural consequence of the definitions of the operators. e.g. Multiplication is shorthand for repeated Addition - 2x3=2+2+2 - so if you don’t do it before addition you end up with wrong answers. The order of operations rules is in fact just breaking everything down into Addition and Subtraction and then solving from there.

      not a convention

      There are some conventions, like left to right, but in that case that’s only because students tend to make mistakes with signs when they don’t go from left to right, so it’s there to preserve teachers sanity.

      • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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        1 day ago

        That’s because it’s already clear as is, as per the rules of Maths.

        More people evaluate 2+3x4 incorrectly than 2+(3x4). So, no, your answer does not hold up to my observed reality. You can throw as many “well technically” and “well actually” as you want, but that’s not going to fix the bug or make a pr.

        • More people evaluate 2+3x4 incorrectly than 2+(3x4)

          The people who have forgotten the rules of Maths, and the mnemonics even! 😂

          So, no, your answer does not hold up to my observed reality

          So try observing a real Maths textbook then. Students have no trouble at all with this, only adults who’ve forgotten the rules.

          • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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            1 day ago

            Adults who have forgotten the rules who I work with and read/write code where it’s important. In the real world.

            This is like some pure maths vs real life engineering cliché.

            You’re either being deliberately obtuse or you’re painfully naive.

            • Adults who have forgotten the rules who I work with and read/write code where it’s important

              And as a consequence of that, MathGPT is the only e-calc which gives correct answers to order of operations! 😂

              This is like some pure maths vs real life engineering cliché

              It’s a Correct Maths vs. Programmers who have forgotten the rules cliche

              You’re either being deliberately obtuse or you’re painfully naive

              Neither, I’m a Maths teacher

              • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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                1 day ago

                I like and respect teachers, but I’m a software developer and I’m telling you that adding extra parenthesis often adds clarity and makes the whole process smoother. You exist in a whole other context that has norms and assumptions that do not apply to what I’m talking about.

                You being technically correct is irrelevant.

                • I’m a software developer

                  So am I

                  adding extra parenthesis often adds clarity

                  Everyone I’ve seen add Brackets to it has done so in the WRONG place and given WRONG answers. Again this is an issue of programmers not checking the rules of Maths

                  that do not apply to what I’m talking about

                  The rules of Maths always apply to all Maths

                  • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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                    1 day ago

                    You’re not listening to me and I don’t think you’re worth listening to. Go away. Goodbye.

    • stray@pawb.social
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      18 days ago

      I sometimes like to add unnecessary parentheses or brackets to section things off and improve legibility, but I don’t do any math stuff collaboratively, so I have no idea whether others would find that disruptive or helpful.

      • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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        18 days ago

        I do this, sometimes it helps reveal a natural pattern when some parts of earlier terms have “disappeared” to simplification

    • Alaknár@sopuli.xyz
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      18 days ago

      I mean, there are very few ambiguous cases when you know how the order of operations works.

    • Quatlicopatlix@feddit.org
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      18 days ago

      Using parenthesis can really help if you want to simplify a term or need to rewrite something. I do that all the time because a lot of times you then can just cross stuff out fast on equations or get a common term that just has some factor instead of having a convolutet equation.

    • merc@sh.itjust.works
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      18 days ago

      I got really angry because the prettier code formatter insists on removing parentheses, making things less clear. Because it’s an “opinionated” formatter you can’t tell it not to do that without using ugly hacks.

      Sure, logically there are times when you don’t need them. But, often it helps to explain what’s happening in the code when you can use parentheses to group certain things. It helps in particular when you want to use “&&” and “||” to say “do X only if Y fails”.